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Orp Suggestions Discussion Thread

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This thread serves the primary purpose of allowing the RP Community to discuss their thoughts on anything that was stated in the

ORP Suggestion Thread.

When attempting to make a comment towards a suggestion, please quote the exact post in your reply on this thread for reference.

I suggest the making of a separate "ORP Suggestions Discussion Thread" thing for members to discuss each others' suggestions. Even when you do introduce the no discussions rule, it seems debate among us in the thread is unavoidable. A separate thread would help.

^ This is a direct quote from the Suggestion Thread.

Note: Although this is used to discuss suggestions, refrain from attack a person's suggestion or using this thread to insult an idea that was proposed. If there is any post that is deemed unnecessary, rude, or in any way violates Forum Conduct, it shall be deleted and dealt with at the discretion of the Moderator Team.

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Hello everyone,

I figured the suggestions discussion thread would be the best place to post this since its really the only free thread for ORP discussion, but if any mods has an issue with this, please feel free to let me know. Not really another thread to put this... so yeah lets carry on shall we. With a fresh start to ORP on its way, I thought I would take the time to create something that may be of benefit to everyone interested. I am pretty lazy when it comes to doing the math involved with role play, and I know I'm not the only one so i took the time to write a slightly more advanced version of what already exists to further remove the need of using a calculator. I went ahead and did the math behind primary and secondary classes along with reiryoku and throwing speeds. The math should be correct since have had others check to ensure it works as anticipated, but if there are any issues feel free to let me know so I can correct it. Here is a sample of how the calculator works:

3f993fc194238e1ebcd19d4bef46659f.png

Do not subtract your initial 5 per stat as this is all done for you automatically for calculating your spendable points. It is recommended you input your Reiatsu along with any boosts, primary, and/or subclasses, your character has first and submit to get your appropriate amount of points you have to spend.

For Windows, before you can run this application, you will need to download and install the .NET Framework 4.0 if it is not already yet installed on your system. After that is completed you can go ahead and download the zipped folder with the executable here. Note, for anyone who does not trust the application or is just tech savvy, I have included the source code along with it being published on Github.

If anyone is running a Mac or Linux machine and is desperate enough to use this rather than doing the math, message me since it will be slightly more cumbersome to install as it will require building by source.

Also thanks to Aiden and Vad who helped test and ensure it was working correctly.

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In view of the latest suggestion, in regards to the function of high-speed movements:

Spoiler

 

6 hours ago, Hitsuyona Shizukesa said:

Back for another suggestion, but this time pertaining somewhat to all races. So far on this particular RP site there have been very few non-kido related techniques. (Or in most race's cases, Reiryoku based techs) This suggestion in general will be generally aimed at specifically Shunpo -and all other race's form of advanced movement techs such as Sonido- 

I have heard that there have been some other techniques in the workings, not relating to reiryoku, so I'm not sure just how much this could be of potential use; either way, here it is.

Below is the 'bleach wikia' version/ explanation of Shunpo's specifics.

Spoiler

 

Shunpo (瞬歩, Flash Steps) is a movement technique which allows the user to move faster than the eye can follow.[3] The focal point which determines the basis of this technique is speed. As speed is the main factor of the technique, the method is best characterized by how fast one can get from point A to point B in the least amount of steps. Training and skill are what determines how fast a user of Shunpo can move; users of little skill in the technique or those who have not used it for an extended period of time would obviously be out of practice, causing them to be considerably slower, which requires the use of more steps to move the same distance and become winded in a shorter amount of time.[4]

 

 

You can assume for the sake of this suggestion (Even though we know Sonido is used in a different matter) that the entire point of these techniques is to get from one point to another, by using the least amount of effort, yet getting there as quickly as possible. The entire point of these techniques is to be able to move faster, without exhausting yourself.

As it stands now, or at the least, with my current knowledge of how these techs previously worked, simply requires 40 speed and a small wc to achieve. But beyond that, there is little to no benefit of using this in battle. My hopes is to find a way to make these techniques not only have a purpose, but be viable to use and not sway their usefulness too much in favor of the 'agile' class.

Now to start reaching my point, I would like to suggest different stages of each, that would have a meaningful purpose in battle to use. Something that can have a useful effect in a longer -or in some cases shorter- term battle. Below in spoilers would be an example of such.

 

Spoiler

 

Unmastered Shunpo: -insert above description here-

Requirements: 40 speed, 20 stamina, 750 WC to learn

Effect: Through utilizing this technique to preserve stamina, your stamina is drained as if you were moving 10 less speed. 

This would mean, that if you are moving at a speed of lets say 60, and using shunpo, it would be draining your 'stamina' as if you were moving 50. This doesn't sound like too much, but in a long term fight that makes a slight difference. Just like someone shooting constant volleys of quincy arrows would eventually get tired.

Mastered Shunpo: 

Requirements: 100 speed, 60 stamina, 1,000 WC to learn

Effect: After having mastered this technique, your movements from one point to the other are taken with the absolute least effort required without losing speed in the process. Your stamina is drained as if you were moving 20 less speed

 

 

While the basis of my idea wouldn't be compromised by making slight altercations to make these techniques more 'ideal' for all classes, without making them OP. (I'm not 100% sure this is 'too much' but I feel it is not) Overall, I feel like there should be advantages/ a reason for the movement techs to be used. And I chose this way to make them, because with the way they are utilized, I feel adding to someone's speed with the technique isn't it's real purpose. While I understand that this is something all Race's/ Rper's could potentially have, I feel it would make a unique difference. I'm not sure why it hasn't been implemented in the past, for shunpo to have an actual effect in battle. But for balancing purposes, I don't see why it couldn't be restricted to amounts of uses, or X amounts of posts to be utilized, much like shunko used to be on this RP Site. 

It's true enough, the exact nature and advantages of high-speed movement techniques like Shunpo have always been somewhat ambiguous, when it comes to their use in the ORP. Though i personally find the Wikia's definition of Shunpo rather as to meaning "How to get from point A, to point B, using the longest strides  and consequently doing so in the shortest period of time", rather than having anything to do with reserving stamina (if not rather exhaust more of it, to achieve this speed. Much in the same way as Yoruichi commented her being out of shape, tiring out after having used the technique continuously to escape Byakuya), i recognize that that seems difficult to implement, with top-speed supposedly being reachable without the technique and speed-boosting being simply too pointlessly plain.
A notable weakness to the current suggest, though i don't discourage the intentions for wanting to make these techniques unique, would possibly be that the "stamina drain" during combat is a concept easily as ambiguous as that of high-speed movements' function and carries a long history of being unequal between opposing parties in a fight, making it unfit for numeral relations, with the difference in individual perspectives.

In the past, when a similar question of what exactly high-speed movements were good for arose in the chat, it's usually been theorized that high-speed movements serve either of two purposes.

  • Allowing the user to utilize their maximal speed, if only for an instance (this problematically inquiring that they otherwise wouldn't, without Shunpo, or the like)
  • Allows the user to accelerate from standstill towards top-speed in an instant, rather than having to build up speed through movement. Allowing generally for an effect similar to the cannon scenes, of users avoiding or outmaneuvering non-users (with the supposed consequence of draining stamina worth the amount of otherwise-required movements for achieving the same, compressed into an instant's worth of "toll" on the muscles).

Though i cannot speak for the general person, the latter of these theories have, for the longest time, been my person interpretation of high-speed movements advantage and consequence, as well as the perspective from which i've considered my personal perspective of the ambiguous "stamina drain", when utilized.

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As I am following what you're saying, I can assume your beliefs to be that instead of actually conserving stamina, that this technique actually puts more stress on the body. By being able to instantly achieve a top speed rather than 'work your way up' to said top speed? I guess I could see this point, I simply went off of my knowledge more so in use of the techs through rp, and what little detail the show managed to go into Shunpo accumulated with the little descriptions I saw on the wikia. 

Whether my interpretation of this technique, or yours is correct though, my idea in theory still stands. At least in the sense that I believe the high-speed movement techs should have some advantage over simply moving with your raw speed in mind. My main hope for the suggestion isn't necessarily that the mod's will take my specific idea for the technique, so much as they will do something with it to make it more worth having than simply being a 'cosmetic' ability with a WC requirement.

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I don't think that this would be a bad change to ND, but I also don't think it's a HUGE improvement. It involves a bit of math, but is simple enough that most should be able to understand X number - X number = Updated number. For those people who will occasionally toss in weaker attacks I would point out that it's not based on the max stat, but the level of the stat used with the successful attack to avoid any arguments that could potentially come up as a result of that. (We all know how things can be when certain things aren't directly stated.) 

As for not being able to kill until it's empty, I agree that attacks to just any random part of the body shouldn't be that way. I don't think it should be absolutely impossible to kill someone before it's empty. For example, if you stab a weapon into someone's eye or mouth. These are places that are difficult to toughen, and I would suggest having at least the head of everyone serve as a sort of "fatality" area if the damage reaches a certain standard (Such as stabbing into the brain and such). It's probably the only universal OHK area across all races. The reason I think this would be good is because it wouldn't make much sense if someone let an attack land directly in a sensitive area like that. Talking about sensitive areas, I would also recommend that things like damage to the eyes and such can't simply be ignored because natural defense. It wouldn't make sense that an area like that could withstand a sword attack that can cut through a mountain.

There are other concepts that would be worth considering, but it would be complicated to do much more than add what I mentioned. Even that would likely confused some people. But examples are things like attacking the same spot and such to "break" the defense. This is one of those things where it is simple, but it essentially makes the "ignore damage" aspect of stamina pointless as you essentially wouldn't be hurt as long as you have ND points. 

Another consideration is whether the amount of ND can realistically be used up. I don't know how this would work with minor damage, but realistically surface damage like a graze doesn't justify consuming X amount of natural defense. This would mean that you would have to have to make examples of partial blocks and maybe introduce the concept of partially dodging as well. A partial block is self-explanatory, but there are plenty of times that you move to cause an attack to fall on a non-critical area or have it land shallower for just a couple of examples. Is there a point to caring where an attack actually hits anymore? I got a bit side tracked, but we still have to obvious dodging and blocking as well. This consumes stamina, but no natural defense. I don't know about others, but I don't take attacks with my character that I can logically avoid without there being an equal trade off for that damage. If it's unreasonable for me to avoid, then that is one thing. But what happens when I am ten posts into a fight using technique after technique and I am running on empty (May not only be ten posts, but you get what I mean with the example)? I still have X amount of natural defense, logically they would have to drain that first. Also, is there the concept of blocking based on stats still that doesn't consume attack slots or is it only using attack versus attack to accomplish this? Realistically, a decent fight will result in two people who are totally exhausted having only landed a few clean hits leaving a ton of ND to burn through. 

I may not have the answers to these questions, but these things will all likely need an answer for it to work well in the system. 

 

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Firstly the point of ND is not to ignore the concept of stamina at all? If you let some hit you in the face with the excuse of natural defenses? You’ll lose some natural defense and it’s still gonna cause some-moderate damage depending. Take a 200 damage cero point blank to the head ? Dead, I mean use common sense people. The entire idea behind the natural defense system is to dampen the blow so to speak. Rash wasn’t saying you don’t take any damage if you use ND it’s just the difference or losing an arm and getting a deep cut/broken arm etc. 

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The way I read it was that you couldn't die until ND was consumed according to the final bit in the spoiler of the suggestion thread. It also didn't state exactly what the results could and would be. I'm just looking to get all of the ambiguity out of it so that it isn't a confusing addition to have. 

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Another issue with that system is a final tier str would only do twice as much damage as a first tier str attack which makes no logical sense at all

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A final tier of strength would be 200 at the standard cap, while the first tier is 20 at max. If someone was ballsy enough to go into that fight and try to go punch for punch the person with 200 would take 20 ND loss while the person with 20 would lose 400 (assuming this is an example of the first tier being the highest). 

It may be good to make it within 10 for this rule for the multiplier as before cap it would seem as if someone with 150 strength was dealing half the damage of someone with 151. 

Edit: The first example was just saying that the natural difference between stats was already high enough from strictly the ND point of view. I realize that I hadn't entire understood your meaning when I replied, but basically someone with merely first tier attack stats as the highest wouldn't have high enough ND to last 1 round of attacks from someone with 200 in their attack stat.

Edited by Kumo
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First off, thanks for taking the time to respond. I've read all the points you made and I'm fairly sure that I understood everything. I'm gonna try to address everything now; if I misunderstood any of your points or simply didn't reply to one, feel free to bring it up again afterwards.

Quote

I don't think that this would be a bad change to ND, but I also don't think it's a HUGE improvement. It involves a bit of math, but is simple enough that most should be able to understand X number - X number = Updated number. For those people who will occasionally toss in weaker attacks I would point out that it's not based on the max stat, but the level of the stat used with the successful attack to avoid any arguments that could potentially come up as a result of that. (We all know how things can be when certain things aren't directly stated.) 

Yeah thanks for clarifying that. So to reiterate, in the example I used before and the way I worded it only reflected if both parties were using 100% of their Damage.

You use your MAX Damage to determine the Subtraction Modifier only. If your MAX Reiryoku is lower than MAX Reiryoku of the opponent you would have to spent x2 the value of the INCOMING ATTACK as ND. So, if Kumo has 250 Reiryoku and he attacks me with a 100 Reiryoku Cero and I have 100 Reiryoku, it would cost me 200 ND.

Since making the suggestion, Star and I have spoken and agreed on a few new things to add.

ADJUSTED ND VALUE FOR TANKS: At the time of making the original suggestion I was under the impression that  some would be against giving Tanks a higher ND value. But that wasn't the case (ya'll hated everything else about it xD) So yeah. Tanks definitely should have an increased ND Value. I determined these values were fair:

8% Primary Tanks [11% with FOCUS Fate Points Purchase] "Iron-Clad" Perk would be Adjusted to 1 use.

6.5% For Sub-Class [7.5 with FOCUS Fate Points Purchase] Sub-Class "Iron-Clad" Perk would be Adjusted to 1 use.

BLOCKING WITH SHIELD TECHNIQUES: This is a thing still and blocking in this way does not cost an Attack unless the Technique was designed so that it does. However, Shield Techniques are usually still based on either Reiryoku or Strength (usually with some modifiers in place)

PARTIAL/BLOCKING & PARTIAL/EVADING: This is an option for those situations where you CANNOT or strategically do not want to fully block or evade an attack. It works as following. Star fires a Cero of 110 Reiryoku. Kumo only has 50 Reiryoku and he wants to only partially avoid it. Kumo takes his 50 Rei and subtracts it from the Cero leaving it at 60 Rei. He then takes the 60 and either multiplies it by 2 (if he has a lower MAX Reiryoku than Star) and then subtract it from his ND. If his MAX Reiryoku is equal or more than Star's he would just subtract the flat spillover. 

THIS ALSO MEANS if two people within the same Damage Tier but only has a few points Strength lower than the other, the lower guy isn't completely shafted by the x2 modifier if he partially blocks the attack, the bit of spillover is what gets multiplied and subtracted. Star has 151 Rei, fires a Cero of 151 Reiryoku. Kumo only has 150 Reiryoku can partially avoid it because Star has more strength. Kumo takes his 150 Rei and subtracts it from the Cero leaving it at 1 Rei. He then takes the 1 multiplies it by 2 and he loses only 2 ND.

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As for not being able to kill until it's empty, I agree that attacks to just any random part of the body shouldn't be that way. I don't think it should be absolutely impossible to kill someone before it's empty. For example, if you stab a weapon into someone's eye or mouth. These are places that are difficult to toughen, and I would suggest having at least the head of everyone serve as a sort of "fatality" area if the damage reaches a certain standard (Such as stabbing into the brain and such). It's probably the only universal OHK area across all races. The reason I think this would be good is because it wouldn't make much sense if someone let an attack land directly in a sensitive area like that. Talking about sensitive areas, I would also recommend that things like damage to the eyes and such can't simply be ignored because natural defense. It wouldn't make sense that an area like that could withstand a sword attack that can cut through a mountain.

I 100% see what you're saying and it's definitely a valid perspective. Especially considering that I know how you personally fight in RP. And I agree that needing to wait for ND to run out raises the effort needed to off someone while not requiring any skill from weaker RP-ers. And from what I've seen this is the biggest issue many are having with the suggestion.

*Deep breath* How I envisioned Natural Defense was to function as a resistance of sort too all damage types. The reason this was even needed is because the OLD Natural Defense did not take into consideration at all the fact that Someone with 100k Rei and maybe maxed out strength maybe should not have to worry about getting killed by a 61 Reiryoku Cero because they aren't allowed to block it even with their enormous strength. The nature of the stat descriptions as also an issue:

41-60: These guys are pretty damn strong. They are able to take apart weak trees with a few swings. To those who cannot block them they get basically thrown away. You give them an arm, and it's basically snapped in half with much ease. Though that's assuming they literally grab it. They can big up large boulder and hurl them over moderate distances. One and a half inch steel with a little time will be thrown away as they destroy it. Their hits are blisteringly powerful. A good punch will throw someone a good distance, their swings are now enough to take your head basically clean off. Third seats and Vice captains are often seen at this level.

Technically, no one would ever need to go above 60 strength to kill a man. So, technically, someone with 60 strength could absolutely Yeet someone with 200 Rei. I just don't like the idea of 25K Bob rolling up on 80k Captain and 1-shotting him. Also, if I am the 80K Captain I want to be able to take 25K Bob's cero to the face without any trouble at all, no blocking needed, no using attacks needed. but I lose a couple ND, no problem.

The three biggest things for me were The Power fantasy and fixing the defense problem. As far as fatality damage, I mean, no one wants to feel like they just got utterly one-shot in a fight, even if it's fair, sometimes you have to let people feel tough. We're here to have fun.

-I'm not saying don't out-play someone and write them into a corner. I'm just asking to consider the possibility of putting that finishing blow off until you've depleted their ND. Let people be SUPER-HUMAN for a little while. Let them feel like actual Bleach characters. How many times have people taken stupid attacks and came out just bruised up. If they're cocky enough to play god against you and let all their ND get blown because they want to take a knife to the throat, let them. When they're ND runs out do it again and their finished at that point. If the captain takes enough free hits to the face his head is gonna be paste at some point.

YES- I agree this 100 artificially extends fights, personally I'm okay with that. I understand if you aren't.

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Quote

There are other concepts that would be worth considering, but it would be complicated to do much more than add what I mentioned. Even that would likely confused some people. But examples are things like attacking the same spot and such to "break" the defense. This is one of those things where it is simple, but it essentially makes the "ignore damage" aspect of stamina pointless as you essentially wouldn't be hurt as long as you have ND points. 

Tanks should stand to benefit the most from ND, that's a given. But also, the Stamina stay plays into things other than how long you can go having sustained a certain about of damage. But Stamina also factors into how many times you can attack at full power. How long you can full. How of you can cast stuff. Tanks still benefit in all those area. Once you run out of ND Stamina will still be important.

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Quote

Another consideration is whether the amount of ND can realistically be used up. I don't know how this would work with minor damage, but realistically surface damage like a graze doesn't justify consuming X amount of natural defense. This would mean that you would have to have to make examples of partial blocks and maybe introduce the concept of partially dodging as well. A partial block is self-explanatory, but there are plenty of times that you move to cause an attack to fall on a non-critical area or have it land shallower for just a couple of examples. Is there a point to caring where an attack actually hits anymore?

If this passes we're gonna implement partial evading and blocking. As well as blocking with Shields. Of course, you should care where your attacks land, I'm just saying is it possible to accept a system where you can't achieve the killing blow until the target runs out of ND.

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Quote

I got a bit side tracked, but we still have to obvious dodging and blocking as well. This consumes stamina, but no natural defense. I don't know about others, but I don't take attacks with my character that I can logically avoid without there being an equal trade off for that damage. If it's unreasonable for me to avoid, then that is one thing. But what happens when I am ten posts into a fight using technique after technique and I am running on empty (May not only be ten posts, but you get what I mean with the example)? I still have X amount of natural defense, logically they would have to drain that first. Also, is there the concept of blocking based on stats still that doesn't consume attack slots or is it only using attack versus attack to accomplish this? Realistically, a decent fight will result in two people who are totally exhausted having only landed a few clean hits leaving a ton of ND to burn through.

There is a lot here so I'll try to take it point by point. ND is an option if you don't want to dodge, block with an attack or block with a shield. If you can't do any of those you're forced to either take the full hit to ND or partially avoid it with ND. If you were unable to normally dodge and block, you won't magically be able to once you run out of ND and you will likely be killed within the following turn or two.

If you've got someone against the ropes, ND doesn't last that long. 100K vs 100K a battle could still be over as quickly as 4-5 Turns. There just won't be anymore 1-2-3 turn kills. Which I know some people like and I obviously see the appeal of. But ND scales with Reiatsu. 100 guy against a 20k guy can still end the fight in 1 turn. 20k Guy for one can't comprehend the attacks to actually dodge or block them, all that damage goes right to their ND and they are done.

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That helped me understand a lot, and I am more or less content with it despite having a very aggressive and detail oriented style. (At least, that's how I would describe it.) My only concern that still exists is the realistic limitations of stamina. I get that ND can be consumed quickly, but the stat people leave slightly lower is typically stamina. More often than not, the reason that I charge in is because the ambiguity of stamina and the limitations that it presents. What concerns me that even is that if it isn't about a quickest kill, then it will be all about drawing out the fight. It seems to me that if you can't land enough decisive hits in a certain time, and the hits you get are negated by ND then the person with more stamina is more likely to win no matter how high your attack may be. 

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1 minute ago, Kumo said:

That helped me understand a lot, and I am more or less content with it despite having a very aggressive and detail oriented style. (At least, that's how I would describe it.) My only concern that still exists is the realistic limitations of stamina. I get that ND can be consumed quickly, but the stat people leave slightly lower is typically stamina. More often than not, the reason that I charge in is because the ambiguity of stamina and the limitations that it presents. What concerns me that even is that if it isn't about a quickest kill, then it will be all about drawing out the fight. It seems to me that if you can't land enough decisive hits in a certain time, and the hits you get are negated by ND then the person with more stamina is more likely to win no matter how high your attack may be. 

That was part of the reason why I thought people would be against giving Tanks more ND. But, Tanks usually have 2 meh damage stats or one good one. And the 8% really amounts to like in think it was 10ish more attacks than everyone else that they can tank to the ND directly before they maxed on.

but since my reply I sat on it and might have found a middle ground. As is, ND still requires the player to have at least attempted to defend themselves against the attack.

I'd say the least form of defense would be like a captain tensing up their face muscles with reiatsu as they took that weak ass cero. I think there is a version where might not get ignored but you can still do some serious harm. So if the guy can even perceive the attack he ain't doing any tensing.

That could be increased damage to ND and also where you see people getting their stomachs sliced open and their eyes stabbed out, and limbs being lost before ND runs out. If you write someone into a position where they cannot bring up their defenses in time then you can Izuru Kira someone.

Would everyone be open open to something like that?

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So long as there is the consideration of to avoid making all battles simply battles of attrition then I support this 100%. I believe you all can definitely work out something great with this. As for tanks having higher ND, it only makes sense because they will typically be weaker in attack.

I will stop worrying about what could be with this, and wait to see how it turns out. The way you have explained it, it can only be better and not worse than the current anyways. 

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